cuffs (#1429)

(an instance of Generic Mail Recipient made by melusina)

     A list for the discussion of the various slippery relationships between text and meat. Bodies, sex, violence, boundaries.

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Date: 1994 Aug 26, 09:14:11 p.m. PST
From: melusina (#907)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: so, here's the idea...

This list is founded upon the idea that poly and I will be able to
use the discussion which (hopefully) takes place here as
data/research for a paper we're writing. Here's the intro post to
its companion list on a MOO-which-shall-remain-nameless:

I am currently collaborating with poly on a paper for an experimental
journal. We are focusing upon the ways in which the very existence
of 'virtual reality' demands that textbook definitions of 'violence'
be expanded, stretched, exploded. One of the aspects we are dealing
with is netsex. What happens when the flesh is turned into a stream
of data? In order to approximate the feeling of body on body (on
body), are the actions of the participants more extreme? This seems
as if it would hold particularly true for non-vanilla sex; how to
textualize s&m? This, of course, assumes that the participants are
not merely treating encounters as an interactive erotica session, but
that their bodies of meat are responding to their bodies of text.
These are our questions: we invite responses in the forms of
thoughts, theories, and anecdotes.

mel and poly.

Date: 1994 Aug 27, 12:38:00 p.m. PST
From: melusina (#907)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: [Trismegistos (#1457): Re: so, here's the idea...]

Date: Sat Aug 27 16:15:51 1994 EDT
From: Trismegistos (#1457)
To: melusina (#907)
Subject: Re: so, here's the idea...

Hi mel & poly. I like the idea but don't understand the distinction you make
between interactive erotica and manifesting VR in the flesh. Even print
erotica allows -- sometimes encourages -- 'one-handed reading,' no? With any
kind of erotica, the decision to, ah, 'take matters in hand' is determined
by the reader rather than the text. Interactivity does not change this, just
changes the control dynamics of the narrative. Until the day of the
teledildonic torture chamber, I think that whether or not MOOsex leads to
any RL physicality is a relatively minor issue ... unless you had something
else in mind by that distinction? Awaiting dialogue, Trism

Date: 1994 Aug 27, 01:31:41 p.m. PST
From: melusina (#907)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: erotica?

Trism...

Your point about the possible falseness of the distinction between 'erotica' and VR registering in the flesh is well taken. I wrote the original post rather quickly, and probably didn't phrase things as carefully as I might have.

But I think that the question of the possible distinction is an interesting one. Is there a difference between reading an erotic narrative as an 'outsider,' (the external reader) and reading it as a participant? Perhaps it's more similar to phone sex than erotica. That comparison too has its difficulties, however, when we factor in the emotes that provide the actions behind the 'says.'

Another aspect of this, I think, is the way that virtual bodies are used. Kissing, hugging, tackling, tickling, and poking are all commonplace in VR, and they seem to have lost any erotic charge which generally accompanies them IRL. After all, social feature objects kind of take the mystery out of a kiss, don't they? With this in mind, I'm wondering if something that succeeds in engaging RL flesh (or urging RL flesh to engage itself) pushes at the boundaries of 'acceptable' eroticism. (Yes, I know that 'acceptable' is a loaded and rather silly word, but I think part of the struggle here is to talk about things that don't fit neatly into linguistic categories.)

Trism says:

Until the day of the teledildonic torture chamber, I think that
whether or not MOOsex leads to any RL physicality is a relatively
minor issue ... unless you had something else in mind by that
distinction?

To actually answer the question (heh), I guess when I wrote it I wasn't thinking so much about whether or not netsex spurs one on to the solitary vice, but HOW the eroticism is manifested. Mmmm, no, that's not quite right either, because there can be any number of facets to an erotic experience. What about the gap between the VR body and the RL body? That's the thing, I think. How are they connected, how does each affect the other? Or do they?

Hm. I hope that this clarifies a little what I'm trying to get at. It's still whirling around in my head, but it will hopefully become more coherent as I wrestle with it more.

mel.

Date: 1994 Aug 31, 10:22:21 p.m. PST
From: Tarquin (#445)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: Dynamic Organ

Great idea for a *mail list!
This is coming to you 'off the cuff' so to speak so please forgive any meanderings or typos.
YOur point mel about features with mechanizied emotes (kisse hugs tickles etc.) is right on target. I refuse to use they canned emotions for that very reason.. so my slowly typed emotes seem much more real to me typos and all. the constant machine like delivery of the 'hug' has destroyed its warmth for me.
My first thought about the division between VR erotism and RL erotism is this... the mind is a subtle and sensitive organ as sensitive as any sex organ. When it is teased and engaged in VR the effects are strong and real. and one aroused organ can lead to another.
Tarquin

Date: 1994 Sep 1, 12:15:10 p.m. PST
From: Patro (#78)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: The fetish of the object

I agree with Melusina that netsex is qualitatively different from phone sex. Emoting is awkward to do over the phone, I would imagine (my experience with phone sex is almost nil). Besides emoting, I believe there is an erotic component to the staging of action in a virtual space. People use room descriptions to create a mood and setting. People use active objects in the same way (handcuffs that block player movement), and most importantly, the player object itself. So there may be a component in MUD sex that is beyond IRC sex where one only has say/emote.

A lot of people I know identify with the "body" they create in VR. There is a category of communications where other players act on the virtual body, which is qualitatively different from the player emoting. The simplest example is when other players "look" at your body. Your description is transmitted without a voluntary emote. More complex examples would be other players removing clothing to reveal descriptions of private details of the body, modifying the description of the body by attaching objects to it, etc.

So the point is that people imagine objects and bodies in a space, and there is a catagory of communications where involuntary actions occur upon the player's body (if only the action of other players looking at the player). I think there is an important erotic component to having a body in VR that is vulnerable to inspection and action.

Date: 1994 Sep 2, 01:18:23 p.m. PST
From: Trismegistos (#1457)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: Involuntary Reactions

A major VR-real sex difference is that VR is much more malleable, naturally,
to the will of players. On the positive side, this means that much imagin-
ative magic can be worked -- costumes and even body parts conjured out of
thin air, instantaneous scenario teleportation -- and that a lot of real-
life, creatural hassle can be avoided if the players want it that way.
As an example, my lover and I have often made use of a plot device called
Spell of Instantaneous Denudation" when we want to get busy online pronto.

And, despite the PC line that antiviral barrier devices are supposed now to
be 'erotic', I doubt that even a minority of e-sex experiences take
naturalism to the point of dealing with condoms, dams, or other
prophylactic goodies. Necessary in RL, yes, but in fantasy, feh!

The downside, though, is that you have to actively imagine
things in e- (or any text-derived) sex that, in RL, are involuntary.
You have to DECIDE when you are going to wriggle, writhe and moan,
when or if you are going to come. Even if you masturbate that is more
immediate control than you would have in any RL sexual encounter.
Interestingly enough (for purposes of this list) S/M really makes no
difference to this dynamic, or shouldn't, because the control games in
S/M do (or should) take place in a context of *de facto* mutual respect.
Put another way, whether I let my lover tickle me or tie me up in RL, I am
surrendering to the involuntary sensations and reactions of my body which
I would have to *construct* in VR, mentally for myself or textually for
the delectation of my partner.

Question: imagine a Generic Orgasmic Player Class, programmed to respond appropriately upon certain inputs (e.g., 'jerk Trism with hand' adds 10 orgasm points and causes Trism to moan loudly). I know I have ... but what would this accomplish in VR, this breaking down of the player-bot distinction, this surrender to autonomic spoofing?

-- Trismegistos

Date: 1994 Sep 2, 04:25:46 p.m. PST
From: Patro (#78)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: automatics

On the other hand, automatic player-class actions don't always work. Quinn's Revenant PC (on LambdaMOO) is the most sophistcated VR embodiment I've seen, but its automated bondage features are a well-known failure.

Date: 1994 Sep 29, 01:05:22 p.m. PST
From: Kalessin (#1551)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: I thought I should just volunteer here...

That I am one person who doesn't need the solitary vice to get off on netsex. Just doing it can send me over the edge. Granted, I have more than one edge, and some are not attainable by netsex alone, but some, very nicely, are, and the sharing I can find in some netsex is well worth the lacks.

Kalessin

P.S. I do not claim to be typical or normal. :>

Date: 1994 Oct 2, 07:54:24 p.m. PST
From: Muriope (#2027)
To:   *cuffs (#1429)
Subj: netsex vs. hardcopy erotica

Is there a difference??? Oh my GOD!! I've never been one-tenth
as arounsed by even the hottest print story as I am by good netsex.
The combination of a real live horny human being on the other end
overlaid with a very generous dose of my own fantasies, wishes and
fondest desires is ever so hot.

for me, there's no comparison.